David Burrow’s book Why Men Hate the Church is quite instructive. It teaches the obvious, but an obvious that only becomes obvious when you first hear about it. He observes that women comprise 60% of adult congregation on a given Sunday. In Japan, evangelical churches are filled with women and few men. The matter is complicated when you have young godly ladies, but no young godly men. So, what is the result? The women marry men who need to be taught–when they are willing–the simple things (the elementary things, as Paul puts it). The women carry the spiritual weight and responsibility to educate her domestic parish. Many persevere, but many give up. A sacred partnership in marriage matures precisely because roles are understood and there is no abandonment of duties; but in such in these marriages roles are reversed.
When women are forced to lead churches they become effeminized and families become disorganized (this, of course, opens up an entirely new discussion when considering single and widowed ladies). By her very nature, the Church is militaristic and triumphant. It should be an encouragement to men. She sings powerfully and victoriously, but very few men see this as the picture of the modern church. What men would not be attracted to The Son of God Goes Forth to War or the jubilant wedding of Psalm 45? Unfortunately, modern churches give increasing ammunition to men for not acting like real men.
Hmmm? Why Men Hate the Church?
Depends on which “Church” we’re talking about. Yes?
1 – the church of man?
2 – “The Church of God?” The ekklesia, the called out one’s, of God?
In my experience…
Men don’t hate “The Church of God” aka – the body of Christ.
When you know and love Jesus, By default, you love “His Body.” “The Church.”
In my experience…
Men have learned to hate, and have good reason to stay away from…
the 501 (c) 3, non-profit, tax deductible, Religious Corporation – the church of man.
Men learn early – It’s a business, run like a business, with hierarchy Not in the bIble,
with “Masters” and “Traditions” who control, manipulate and “Spiritually Abuse.”
Should we call a Corporation – “The Church of God?” AAARRRGGGHH!!! 🙁
Can’t seem to find, male or female who, “Lead a Church” in my antiquated KJV.
Or anyone going “to church” or “attending church” in the Bible.
When you hear words that are NOT in the Bible?
don’t you wonder why we use them?
and where they came from?
Isn’t it challenge enough understanding?
the truth of the words that are written?
How much harder word’s that we make up?
Doesn’t the Bible warn us about;
*The commandments of men?
*The doctrines of men?
*The philosophies of men?
*The traditions of men?
that make the Word of God of “non effect?”
Mark 7:13 KJV – Making the word of God of “none effect” through your tradition…
Mark 7:13 ASV – Making “void” the word of God by your tradition…
Mark 7:13 NIV – Thus you “nullify” the word of God by your tradition…
A simple word like “church.”
What do most people **Today** think that means.
Ask someone, believer or non-believer, to describe, explain or point to “church.”
1 – Building with a steeple? — Is that in the Bible?
2 – Pastor – in a Pulpit – Preaching – to People – in Pews? — Is that in the Bible?
That’s what the world thinks, the believer and the unbeliever, isn’t it?
Isn’t that what our so called “Church planting” has accomplished
with four buildings on four corners in a lot of local towns?
And passing the plate at every meeting?
Haven’t we deceived the people we’re supposed to be reaching out to?
How many will know and understand that they can
become “the ekklesia of God.” The called out one’s of God.
How many will know that “The Church of God”
“The ekklesia, the called out one’s of God” are;
Kings and preist’s unto God.
The Bride of Christ.
Servants of Christ.
Sons of God.
Disciples of Christ.
Ambassadors of Christ.
Haven’t we deceived them by telling them the building is the church?
And we have to give money to God so He can keep His building in good order?
When all the time “you are” the ekklesia of God.
The habitation of God. The house of God.
God doesn’t dwell in temples built with the hands of men.
Haven’t they missed the awesomeness of God,
The beauty of “His Church,” “His Body.” How we all become “ONE” in Him?
Neither bond nor free, neither male nor female,
Neither Emergent nor Traditional nor Pentecostal nor Baptist.
Neither Complementarinism nor Egalitarianism.
Neither Denominationalism nor Non- denominationalism.
All obeying Jesus. All following and learning from Jesus, as “ONE” new man.
Real men, who love Jesus, hate the “Corporation” with it’s politics, false hierarchy and control.
Real men, who love Jesus, love the “Real” Church of God. The body of Christ.
Jesus… My Lord and my God…
Church is corporate gathering with leaders/under-shepherds (John 10; Hebrews 13:17), with sacraments (I Cor. 11), and with preaching (Acts 2) = apostle’s teaching. Any other group that denies these essentials are anti-church, and thus anti-christ. To love Christ is to love the Church. You can’t love Christ and not love the Church. You make many unfortunate and simplistic assumptions. I’d be happy to correspond with you via phone: 850-377-3049 or e-mail: uriesou@gmail.com
Uri
You’ve chosen an “impossible” profession, NOT found in the Bible, “Pastor/Leader.”
Impossible if you “really” love Jesus? (aka. Love the truth.)
For some it’s a job, a career, a way to feel good about themselves.
But, if you love Jesus? The pain, the concern, the frustrations, unbearable.
Only God knows the secret motives of our hearts. And us, sometimes.
I have seen the dangers of “Titles,” and “Position”of “Pastor/Leader.”
“Spiritual Abuse” for both the “leader” and those “being led.”
I’m not not new to “ministering healing” to those who have
been “Spiritually Abused” by those who were taught they were “Pastor/Leaders.”
By those who **believed the lie** they were now “Leader/Undershepherds.”
(Of course I’m the leader, says so right here on my diploma and license, see…)
Folks who have been *burnt,** burnt out,** kicked out,*
and *crawled out* of “The Religious System” of today.
With it’s leaders, submission to spiritual authority, Tithes and offerings,
and other unbiblical “heavy weights” put on folks shoulders.
I also spend a fair amount of time with “Pastors/Leaders”
So called “God Ordained Authority”who can’t do it anymore.
Trying to run the show and please so many masters.
Trying to please the denominational leaders,
please the congregation, the congregations leaders,
your own family, and of course Jesus.
Who is often relegated to last place. Hmmm?
Serving so many masters, that’s tough, Yes?
Preaching every week… and it better be good, being the CEO,
the team leader, counciling, marrying, burying, smiley face. etc. etc.
Seems that ”Title” and “Position,” NOT in the Bible, “Pastor/Leader”
comes with something, “A Little Bit Extra.”
Power, Profit, Prestige, Honor, Glory, Recognition, Reputation, etc…
All those things Jesus spoke against. Yes?
Like those in the wilderness asking for meat, God gave them what they asked for,
and “A Little Bit Extra.” He sent leanness to their soul. Psalm 106:15
Jesus humbled Himself, made Himself of NO reputation,
and took on the form of a “Servant.” Phil 2:7-8.
Once you take the “Title” and “Position,” and are **known** as “Pastor/Leader”
you now have; Power, Profit, Prestige, Honor, Glory, Recognition, Reputation.
“Idols” of the heart, not easily laid down or walked away from. Ezekiel 14:1-7
Heavy weights and expectations on mens shoulders. Not easily lived up to.
Once you take the “Title” you separate yourself from the brethren.
“Titles” say, ** I am** – “You’re NOT.” Separation = loneliness = leanness.
When you live the lie you start to die.
What is popular is not always “Truth.”
What is “Truth” is not always popular.
It is written in the prophets,
And they shall be “all” taught of God.
John 6:45
Out of heaven he made thee to hear his voice,
that he might instruct thee:
Deuteronomy 4:36
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall “hear my voice;”
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16
One Fold – One Shepherd – One Voice.
If Not Now, When?
Be blessed in your search for Truth… Jesus.
Sir, you make absolutely no sense. To please Christ is to please His bride. Paul speaks of ministers, teachers, and bishops; St. Luke speaks of elders. St. John (ch. 10) speaks of shepherds and under-shepherds by implication. St John speaks of angels leading the church in Rev. 2-3. Unfortunately, your anarchistic view of church life is not found in history nor in the Bible. The Jerusalem above, says Paul, is the mother of us all (Gal. 6).
Uri
Of course I’m making sense.
You’re just defending something different, “traditions of men,” from “The Religious System” and it’s
uncomfortable when your – Power, Profit, Prestige, Honor, Glory, Reputation, Recognition, etc…
everything you were taught, and believed, is being challenged and diminished.
In the Bible, How many people… have the “title” pope/vicar of Christ?
In the Bible, How many people… have the “title” pastor/reverend?
In the Bible, How many people are… referred to as pastor/reverend?
In the Bible, How many people are… ordained as a pastor/reverend?
In the Bible, How many congregations are… led by a pastor/reverend?
I love “The Church of God,” that he purchased with His blood, The Body of Christ.
It’s the church of man, and how it destroys folks, both “Leader” and “Led.”
It’s the 501 (c) 3, non-profit, tax deductible, Religious Corporation, that’s being exposed.
With it’s “Titles” and “Positions,”spiritually abusive leaders, submission to authority,
tithes and offerings, and other heavy weights placed on mens shoulders, NOT in the Bible.
Jesus loves you. And wants to be your shepherd, your teacher, your master.
Those who are “Led” by the Spirit, they are the sons of God. Rom 8:14.
Jesus taught His disciples NOT to be called “Rabbi/Teacher” – “Master/Leader.”
For you have “ONE” “Teacher” “Leader” the Christ.
8* But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9* And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10* Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
11* But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
12* And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased;
and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.
Mat 23:8-12
Seems to me when you take the “Title” and “Position” “Pastor/Leader”
you seperate yourself from the brethren and you exhalt yourself. Oy Vey!!!
I minister healing to the “Spiritually Abused.” Both “Leaders” and “Led.”
Seems the “Burnout” rate for “Pastor/Reverend/Leaders” is increasing.
“Pastor/Leaders” and the families, pay a horrible price trying to please so many masters.
http://pastoralcareinc.com/WhyPastoralCare/Statistics.php
# 80% of pastors’ spouses wish they would choose a different profession.
# 80% believe pastoral ministry has negatively affected their families.
……………Many pastor’s children do not attend church now
……………because of what the church has done to their parents.
# 33% state that being in the ministry is an outright hazard to their family.
This is serious business. Yes?
http://www.pastorcare.org/PastorCare/Healing___Health.html
• 77% say they do “not” have a good marriage.
• 71% have felt burned out or depressed.
• 70% do not have someone they consider a close friend.
• 38% are divorced or seriously considering divorce.
• Over 1600 pastors in the U.S. are forced out of their positions each month.
That’s who is running the show. “Pastors/Leaders?”
77% who say they don’t have a good marriage. Hmmm?
71% have felt burned out or depressed.
That’s who is “Spiritually Abusing” God’s sheep.
Think there might be a problem with **Today’s** “Pastors/Leaders?”
I’ll stick with Jesus…
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall “hear my voice;”
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16
One Fold – One Shepherd – One Voice.
If Not Now, When?
Jesus… My Lord and My God…
You write: You’re just defending something different, “traditions of men,” from “The Religious System” and it’suncomfortable when your – Power, Profit, Prestige, Honor, Glory, Reputation, Recognition, etc… everything you were taught, and believed, is being challenged and diminished.”
Sir, unfortunately you seem to have a distorted view of the pastorate. Hebrews 13 says we ought to obey our leaders (context=assembly). Your argument boils down to “here are some statistics, therefore, the role of a pastor is wrong.” We all have traditions; it’s just that some are biblically-based, others are not. Yours are the clearest expression of the traditions of men. The abuse of something is never an argument against its proper use. Because certain ministers abuse their authority does not mean that the role is abolished; a very foolish and infantile argument. please re-consider for your own good. The role of a minister (Paul) and shepherd-which by the way means “pastor,” is to live sacrificially for his congregation as Jesus lived for His people. Taking a title does not separate one from the people, it makes them accountable for the spiritual well-being for the people (the exact opposite case you make. Taking Matthew 23 and quoting it means nothing apart from context. You fail to see the immense rebuke Jesus offers the Pharisees–this ultimately leads to the destruction of the temple. What Matthew 23 is saying is that Jesus is overturning the rabbinic view of Scriptures and making Himself to be the true Teacher and true and greater Abraham. This has nothing to do with pastors and ministers (which Paul speaks about later on). Unless you deny the authority of Paul’s words, you have no ground biblically. You are advocating ecclesiastical anarchy. There is plenty of abuse in isolationism; spiritual and physical.I will stick with Jesus and His Bride; the Church may be a whore, but she is still our Mother. Love her cherish her and seek her peace, for when you love the Bride you are loving the Groom.
Uri
These are important and sensitive topics. Yes?
You don’t have to believe this now.
But, I’m hoping and praying, that “ONE” day you’ll thank me. 😉
I didn’t believe these things at first either.
A while back, I started to notice that some of what I thought was “truth”
from the Word of God was actually “traditions of men” “hand-me-down religion,”
that makes the Word of God of non effect. ( Mark 7:6-13 )
I also noticed, that when you start to touch a man’s traditions
he gets pretty upset. He rarely takes the time to hear the whole story
and take it to God to see if it is truth. It’s often hard to admit
that we have believed lies. Or that people we respect, taught us lies.
I have been deceived by others, those I loved, and deceived myself.
Don’t know it all now. So, in some areas, I’m still deceived. Oy vey!
When we’re deceived, we don’t know we’re deceived,
we don’t always realize we’re believing a lie. 🙁
I started to notice that what I was taught about **today’s** “Pastorate,”
“Pastors/Leaders,” wasn’t lining up with what was found in scripture.
For starters…
When searching for what those in the “Pastorate” are supposed to do,
what **Today’s** “Pastor/Leaders” are supposed to do – from the Bible,
I had a very rude awakening.
I found…
NO – Pastors – in Pulpits – Preaching – to People – in Pews.
…… When folks came together, every one has a psalm, has a doctrine,
…… has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. 1 Cor 14:26.
…… Every one can and is expected to participate. Today we have pew potatoes.
NO “disciple of Christ” “calling” another brethren – Pastor, or “My” Pastor.
NO “disciple of Christ” “calling” them self – Pastor or Leader.
……”ALL” disciples called themselves “Servants of Christ.” Hmmm?
NO “disciple of Christ” having the “Title”or “Position” – “Pastor/Leader.”
…… Today that “Title” is written on – Diploma’s on walls, business cards,
…… office doors, Sunday morning bulletin, street signs, and more.
…… And everyone knows who the “Pastor/Leader” is. Why?
…… Jesus, humbled Himself, made Himself of NO reputation,
……. took on the form of a “Servant.” Could that “Title” be an “Idol?”
NO “disciple of Christ” “Exercising Authority” over another believer.
…… I was taught; You submit to me, NOW, your “God Ordained Authority,”
…… And, one day, when you’re a Pastor, people will submit to you. 🙁
……. Power. Profit, and Prestige, is highly esteemed among men. Guilty. Oy Vey!
NO – Pastors, separating themselves from the body, as “Clergy-class.”
NO – Pastors, living sacrificially for their congregations.
NO – Pastors counseling anyone.
NO – Pastors marrying anyone.
NO – Pastors burying anyone.
NO – Pastors visiting the sick.
NO – Pastors wearing special clothes.
NO – Pastors going from one congregation to another. What’s up with that?
…… Elders, plural, matured within the group, when, if, appointed, they were known.
…… Pastor, Paid, Professional, is hired, NOT known.
And the list goes on…
You could probably think of a few yourself.
IMO – Not of much of what we see **Today,** with “Pastors/leaders,”
has any reference in scripture.
Can you name one person in the Bible, with scripture reference,
who has the “Title” and “Position” – “Pastor/Reverend/Leader?”
Jesus… The Shepherd and Bishop of my soul…
an you name one person in the Bible, with scripture reference,
who has the “Title” and “Position” – “Pastor/Reverend/Leader?”
Yes, an “overseer,” which is an office…since you have to seek for it, according to Paul. These are biblical terms all used interchangeably. Timothy was an overseer (I Tim. 3). An overseer’s duty is to shepherd the assembly (Acts 20:28). One who shepherds the assembly is a pastor. A Pastor is a shepherd. They are under-shepherds of the true shepherd. Again, your position is untenable, a-historical, and un-biblical. Return to the Church of Christ and the assembly of God and submit to your leaders (Hebrews 13). This is your duty before God. I urge you.
Uri
Appreciate the conversation and your passion.
Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another:
and the LORD hearkened, and heard it,
and a book of remembrance was written before him
for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name.
Mal 3:16
I have a few thoughts about Heb 13. I’m very familiar with it. Oy Vey!!! 🙁
Used to teach it when “Leadership” and “being in control” was important.
I struggled with what I was taught in “The Abusive Religious System.”
I’ve looked at Heb 13, and “Spiritual Abuse,” often, since the early 90’s,
after leaving “Leadership,” (Yes I was ordained) and “The Religious System”
through much pain and tears and “Spiritual Abuse.”
When you’re in an “Abusive” relationship it’s difficult to reason “Truth.”
Even in the natural, the “Abused” often defends the “Abuser.”
So in the Spiritual. I used to defend those who “Spiritually Abused” me.
Not till you leave, and some healing takes place, can you see much at all.
But God… is faithful…
…Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.
John 18:37
Here’s how I started to see Heb 13:17 after leaving “The System.”
1 – First qualification for me, on who to obey and submit to, became…
Who knows me, cares about me and watches for my soul. 😉
In my experience…
Those who are “Spiritually Abusive” preach “Obey your leaders” a lot.
But didn’t spend much time with me… Getting to know me… and…
“Keeping watch over my soul.”
In reading, over and over again, I noticed there are no Titles” or “Positions”
mentioned in Heb 13. NO pastors, NO elders, NO overseers.
Just someone who was “keeping watch over “My” soul.”
I also noticed, “Spiritually Abusive Leaders” when questioned,
or disagreed with, no longer considered “my’ soul important.
What was important was “being in control” “being THE authority.”
They would label me, call me names and attempt to put me down. 😉
1 – First qualification for me, on who to obey and submit to, became…
Who knows me, cares about me and watches for my soul. 😉
Does anyone have to obey and submit to…
Someone who is NOT keeping watch over your soul?
Someone who is “Abusive Authority” wanting to be in control?
NOT anymore – thank you Jesus… 😉
Jesus warned about “The Religious Leaders.”
Beware – they say one thing and do another.
More coming…
Jesus loves me… and forgives me all my sin…
Uri
“Abusive Leaders” want you to “obey” – But don’t spend a lot of time with…
1 – Neither as being lords over God’s heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
1Pet 5:3
The second list of qualifications, for who to obey, and submit to, became…
1 – Are they living examples of – NOT lording it over “Disciples of Christ?”
2 – Are they living examples of – lowliness of mind?
3 – Are they living examples of – “esteeming others better” than themselves?
4 – Are they living examples of – submitting “One to Another?”
5 – Are they living examples of – preferring others before themselves?
6 – Are they living examples of – being clothed with humility?
7 – Are they living examples of – NOT exercising authority over “Disciples of Christ?”
2 + 3 – Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory;
but in **lowliness of mind** let each **esteem others** better than themselves.
Php 2:3
4 – **Submitting yourselves one to another** in the fear of God.
Eph 5:21
5 – Be kindly affectioned one to another with brotherly love;
**in honour preferring one another.**
Rom 12:10
6 + 4 – “Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder.”
Yea, **all of you** be subject **one to another,** (subject = submit)
and be **clothed with humility:** for God resisteth the proud,
and giveth grace to the humble.
1Pet 5:5
Then Jesus told “His Disciples” NOT to **Exercise Authority.**
7 – …they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles
**exercise lordship over them; **
and their great ones **exercise authority upon them.**
But so shall it NOT be among you:…
Mark 10:42-45
Ever try pointing out these verses to a Senior Pastor who is addicted to
Power, Profit, Prestige, Honor, Glory, Recognition, and Reputation? Ouch!!! ;-(
In my experience with “Pastor/Leaders”… Me included…
No matter how loving, eventually…
No matter how humble, eventually…
No matter how much a servant, eventually…
They will “exercise authority” and “lord it over” God’s precious sheep. 🙁
That’s always the beginning of “Spiritual Abuse.” 🙁
“Pastor/Leaders” = exercise authority = lord it over = abuse = always
If an “elder/overseer/undershepherd” “Exercises Authority” and “lords it over?”
Doesn’t that automatically disqualify them from **any** so called “Position/Office?”
I’m in agreement with David – The Lord is m Shepherd – Jesus
Uri
You mention Paul and…
Didn’t Paul give qualifications for “elder/overseer?”
Why did Paul give qualifications for “elder/overseer” if not important?
Which qualifications of Paul can we ignore? Which one’s aren’t important?
I’ve noticed, most today don’t give much attention to Paul’s qualifications.
I find no place in scripture where it says an “elder/overseer” is a “Leader.”
But, you seem to think “elder/overseer” are “Leaders.” Maybe you’re correct.
So, for me…
The third list of qualifications of who to “obey” and “submit” to…
are given by Paul. 😉 Thank you Paul… Thank you Jesus… We have a guide…
If someone, who says they are an “elder/leader,” can’t meet the qualifications…
Do I have to “obey” and “submit” to them? 😉
1 – **blameless** — unrebukeable, without fault.
2 – husband of one wife — married, male.
3 – rules well his own house — have an obedient family and children.
4 – not greedy of filthy lucre — Not greedy for money.
5 – vigilant — no excessive wine, calm in spirit.
6 – sober — of a sound mind, self controlled.
7 – of good behavior — modest, unassuming, reserved.
8 – no striker — not quarrelsome, contentious.
9 – not a brawler — abstaining from fighting.
10 – not self willed — not self pleasing, not arrogant.
11 – not soon angry — not prone to anger.
12 – temperate — having power over, restraining.
13 – **holy — undefiled by sin, free from wickedness.
14 – **just — righteous, virtuous, innocent, faultless.
And their children must qualify also…
“having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly”
15 – faithful — believing, one who trusts in God’s promises.
16 – not accused of riot — Strongs – asotia — unsavedness.
………an abandoned dissolute life, lost to principle.
17 – unruly — disobedient.
That’s a tough list of qualifications. Yes?
Do you, and your children, qualify to be an “elder/overseer?”
If someone thinks they qualify?
Is that pride and thus NOT without fault?
The Bible talks about “elders” and qualifications for “elder/overseer.”
Can you have one with out the other?
Jesus… the Shepherd and Bishop of my soul…
Well, you have made my point. Your error seems to be that of equating every position of leadership/pastorate/shepherd with that of an abusive authoritarian figure. I am sure some people would make the same argument against abusive fathers and mothers, so does that make their position of authority obsolete? In your reasoning it does. I do not argue that some leaders/pastors have abused their role and I do not argue that many do not fit Paul’s qualifications as they should, but even if 99.9% percent of pastors today did not meet those qualifications, I would still believe in the role of a pastor/shepherd/elder in the church because God’s word is always true no matter if men obey it or not. Thanks for the conversation.